REAL TALK RENTALS

BEN: Coming up on real talk rentals. We're going to talk dispositions. Don't worry. If you don't know what that means, we're going to get all into it and break it down for you. Welcome to Reel Talk Rentals, a podcast brought to you by on Q Property Management. We're going to give you the inside scoop on property management and everything that goes on behind the scenes. I'm Ben and I'm joined as always by my co host, Mr. Eric Dixon, the go to expert on all things rental property and real estate here in Arizona. On this episode, we're going to jump into something that I think a lot of people are probably unfamiliar with terminology wise. But we say all the time here in the property management world and sometimes we forget other people don't know what it is and that is dispositions. So, Eric, I'm going to throw this to you. What is the disposition?

ERIC: Yeah. So it's funny because before we record these, you know, we know what we're going to talk about vaguely, but I was telling my wife, she's like, What's the next one about? It's like, Oh, it's a lovely one. Dispositions. She's like, What's that? You know, like what? Exactly? And I'm like, Well, it's kind of a you could say it's a boring topic, but I want to kind of unpeel it to realize that so everyone realizes it's not that it's boring, but it's super important, number one. And number two is we'll make it interesting because around the disposition in property management, there's a lot of funny, hairy stories that that happen. So a disposition is better well known, at least as property managers. We say disposition or the dispo. That's kind of just like the terminology. But if you say that, Hey Ben, you're an owner, it's like, Yeah, we're doing the dispo today. You're like, Dude, what's that?

BEN: Yeah. So the first month I worked here, I didn't want to be the guy that was like, I don't know what that is. And you guys are like, We're doing Dispose right now.

ERIC: And I did take it, take it further. I was signing owners up for our service and I didn't know what a disposition was because I was just signing them up, Dude, I would sign up the management agreement and then I'm like, you know, we lease it out and then it's the property manager's problem. I'm back talking to the to the new new clients. Right. So it took took a long time just to understand. But really what the disposition is, is the security deposit disposition. So it's a breakdown of the charges after a tenant moves out of what you're going to charge them out of their deposit or what they owe after move out. Right. And so it breaks that up. And so, for example, if you have $1,000 refundable security deposit, you would have that at the top. And then you charge, let's say, $300 of of damage and neglect that the tenant did, then they would show a $700 refund. But part of that disposition is breaking down the actual charges. It's not just like 300 bucks for cleaning. It's like, no, you need to have a work order or an invoice or a detailed breakdown of that. I would say to the security deposit disposition and the process and the liability involved is one of the main reasons people hire a management company. Sure. Again, whether it's us or somebody else, you think about self managing and they have no idea.

ERIC: A lot of people, they buy their first rental or they convert their primary residence into their first rental because they bought another house. They have no idea that there's laws around timeframes and what you can charge and not charge. There's depreciation on different things. And so it's just one of the things hey, that's one of the reasons people hire us, I would also say. Um, what I was getting at with that. Oh, it was. I'm not going to say his name on here, actually. So one one of our clients, he's a current client now, but when I was signing him up, it's actually an individual I know went to high school with them. Right. And so he's like, Hey, dude, I've been managing this place forever. I think I'm done. Like, it's just he probably had a bad experience. I can't remember. I went and met him at the house. The tenant had just moved out and so I'm thinking the house needed a lot of work and I'm thinking, Hey, did you do the disposition? And I think I said disposition, like, Hey, did you do the disposition to break down the charges? He's like, No, but I just sent him a text and said, You're not getting your deposit back. And I was, you know, that's it.

ERIC: That's it. I just sent him a text, Hey, dude, you're not getting your deposit back. And I was like, Oh, dude, Well, we're not going to do it for you because we didn't manage the lease and all that. But here's the thing. You got to do it within 14 business days. You need to send it. You need to make sure that you can prove that you delivered it to them, whether it's by mail, certified mail in person or whatever. And then they have to be actual charges. He's like, Well, dude, it's trashed. And then I went down and talked to him. Well, how old is your carpet that he trashed and how old is the paint and how old is this? And we went through it and he's like, Dude, I'm like, nervous. I should probably refund some of his deposits. Like, Yeah, dude, you probably should, because if you don't do it right, at least in Arizona, they're eligible for two and one half times two and one half times the refundable deposit if the landlord or the property manager screws up. Right? So it's like, Oh yeah, screw up, send that text. He thinks he's good. And then if the tenant knows what they're doing, they could for that 1000 refundable deposit, they're eligible for $2,500. If, if they win the case, they're so Yeah.

BEN: And I think that is like a number one fear that that tenants have is this assumption, you know that like they're just going to get that text message that says you're not getting it back. And it's like, are you just keeping that? Or, Yeah, what's happening here? So this is really like an itemized list, right? It's like a receipt. That's this is what the money is going to be spent on.

ERIC: Yeah. And so we send ours with, with an itemized list is correct. And then in addition to that with the estimates or contractors invoices, depending on what it is. Right. So if you're charging them for replacement of carpet, chances are that by the time you send that out, the carpet's not actually replaced yet. But you have contracted the work, right? What you can't do and I think we'll get into this in a different scenario, but you can't say I'm going to replace the carpet and not replace the carpet. Right. Right. And then charge them, keep the money and then use that money to either pocket or I just rented it with the crappy.

BEN: I'll just vacuum it myself. And that's.

ERIC: Good.

BEN: That's good. Yeah. Um. So when we're talking about putting this list together, how crucial are things like photographic evidence or like pictures? I hear a lot of customers saying, well, I left it cleaner than I got it, you know, And if. Is it enough to just say, no, it was dirty?

ERIC: Yeah. Well, so what we do because we we didn't start this way 12 years ago, you know, and we did move in inspections, but we more leaned on the tenant to hold them accountable. But then we started doing actual moving inspections and actual move out inspections shortly after we started. But it makes it so much easier. I mean, if you take a picture of the kitchen before and the kitchen after and you're like, no, there's a hole in the cabinet. It wasn't there when you moved in. It is there now, you know. And the biggest determination you have to figure out is, is it wear and tear a hole in the cabinets, not wear and tear? Or is it damage and neglect, wear and tear you can't charge for. Right. And if they're there for one year or if they're there for ten years, wear and tear is a different definition. You know, it's like, you know, the lifespan of carpet and the lifespan of paint and so forth has has a life. But wear and tear you can't charge for damage and neglect as holes more than a pinhole or more than like a nail hole. If they hung a big screen TV and they just ripped it off the wall. Sure. Or even if they took the bracket off and you've got seven bolts and it's like, dude, those are good size. Like, hey, we have to fix that before you leave.

ERIC: I'd say the biggest, most common charge is cleaning. And some tenants, they they're like, Well, you're going to clean, you're going to charge me anyway. I'm just going to not clean it. And those are actually then we have to charge like deep cleaning and it's even more. But I would say carpet cleaning and cleaning are like, we don't want to charge those. They take time. No one's making money. And and it's it's harder and we have to charge you. But those are the most common touch up paint. It's a hard one because it's subjective sometimes, like does the touch up even look good, Right? Does the sheen match the color match? Landscape cleanup is a super common one, and a lot of times they're like, I just couldn't get around to it. We moved U-Haul, had to go, Can you just charge me for the landscaping? And so a lot of these tenants, they turn in their keys and they know, Hey, man, I'm going to get charged for cleaning, I'm going to get charged for landscaping, I'm going to get charged for carpet cleaning. Right? I put a hole in that one door on the way out, my pool table, knocked, you know, put a dent in the wall, and they kind of are expecting certain things. You know, we try to make it so they're not surprised.

BEN: Right. I. One thing that I've noticed on on display is that people seem to be surprised by that. They shouldn't be is. They'll just leave stuff, you know, just a garage full of things. And I'll be like, Well, I didn't want that stuff. And it's like, Well, somebody's got to throw it out. Now. We got to pay a guy to go down there with the truck, load it up, take it to the dump. It doesn't just disappear.

ERIC: Yeah. And I would say the biggest challenge was with that is that in their mind they're like, Dude, just have a guy with the truck, pay him 50 bucks and run it to the dump or go find a dumpster in the Fry's parking lot. The grocery store parking lot. Yeah. And and we're a license. We have to hire license, bonded, insured contractor. You know, for liability sake, they won't even show up to a house for under 100 bucks. Like, legit, whether it's a company we use or a random person off Google, it's like between fuel and wages and stuff. It's like they can't even show up. And then if you have to charge dump fees, they're not going to put it in a grocery store dumpster.

BEN: They're going to put.

ERIC: It at their dumpster, at their yard, or they're going to take it to to the dump. And it's like due to haul off like that, even a small haul off is hundreds of dollars. Yeah. And they're like, no, I would have just told my neighbor to put it in his black barrel if I would have known that. Yeah. So there is like, Oh, man. Then why did you leave a garage full of crap, you know?

BEN: Yeah. Yeah, I see that all the time. It's funny. I'm going to put my wife on blast here a little bit, but she, uh. She is like, the cleanest person I know. Like, just. To a tea like vacuum. Every night you wipe down all the counters. Just clean, clean, clean. But she uses the word filthy all the time. She'll say the house is filthy. And I'll look at her and say, Honey, I've seen filthy.

ERIC: Yeah.

BEN: This is not filthy. This is some toys need to be put away. Like we've seen what people turn in. Sometimes we're like, I don't care, You clean it. And it's like, that is a level of filthy.

ERIC: Yeah. And it's funny that you mentioned that because we use that. I mean that happens with when we sign up clients to use our service and for tenants moving in and we realised that your wife's definition, my wife to their definition of clean is it's a high bar. There's a high bar, right. Some of our owners that we bring on their level of clean is low and we have to educate them. That's like, Yo yo, I know you say it's clean, but it smells like your pets and this carpet needs replaced. And they're like, Oh, it's been like that the whole time I've lived here. And I'm sitting there going, Okay, first of all, that's disgusting. But second of all, that's not acceptable. Like the tenant, you have to understand that the higher you put the bar, the better tenant you're going to attract. You know, you imagine walking into a rental and your wife is like, Now this is filthy, so she thinks your house is filthy. Go look at one of the rentals on the market, not one of ours, but one of these that is not clean. And to just be like, I can't even look at this place.

BEN: Yeah. And I think that's like. Uh, you kind of touched on in that previous question, but you get tended to think and some owners honestly try and do this that it's like, I'll just move someone in here. When they move out, I'll use the security deposit to replace a carpet.

ERIC: Did that. That is a mindset that is in it's out there. Yeah. And it's been used over and over and over. And I think one thing that that's important to understand, too, is tenants aren't. It's not. I think it used to be this negative connotation a little bit like you're a tenant and you're renting. It's like, No, dude, that's number one people. A lot of people are renting because they have flexibility. It's like they're not wrapped in a 30 year mortgage on this house that could go up and down. I can move year to year. I don't have to I don't have to pay for repairs. Like, dude, it is not bad to rent. Now, if you're going to rent for ten or 20 or 30 years, like, yeah, there might be a better option like long term investment wise, but there's not a negative connotation to it. And we need to realize that. I say that because tenants are smart, like they are good qualified applicants that we get every single day. They're not stupid, like they want a clean house just like you do. They want a good school district, they want stuff taken care of, you know? And so we we try and educate the owners as we bring them on. Like we're not just like you're not the high and mighty landlord and the tenants down here. It's like actually a lot of times, more often than not, the tenants that apply make more money, have better credit. Yeah. Than some of our landlords.

BEN: Sure. And I. And you touched on that too, like with isn't there like a certain amount, like if you have carpet and it's been in there for ten years, you can't charge them for brand new carpet, right? It's already has a certain depreciation like paints the same way.

ERIC: Yep. And so a lot of people don't like to hear this. Right. So I'll throw this is an extreme example, but it happened here of a house we manage. So I'm not going to say names, but if they're listening, they know who this is. It's just so unique that they that they're like, Oh, that's me. But then they texted me about the podcast, so I know that at least maybe they'll listen to this one, right? Yeah. So, so they bought back in 2003 or four, this house was built in Santa Anne Valley, brand new build. It's actually back then it was way out in the boonies. Right now it's like in town. Yeah, well, the market crashed. Whatever 2013 comes around, the house is over ten years old. Almost ten years old. I think it has never been lived in one time. So it got caught up in some litigation, some builder went under, then the market crashed and this this thing was roped up forever. We I helped him buy it as the buyer's agent, helped him buy it as a foreclosure. They actually bought two of this builder's houses right on the same street. But everything's in mint condition. It actually felt like you were going back in time because you walk in and you're like gold light fixtures, brand new carpet, brand new paint.

ERIC: Oh, the house is ten years old. That's rare. So we rented it out and the first tenant in one of them, unfortunately, was there for a year. They trashed the carpet. I mean, it needed to be replaced. Absolutely. There was no ifs, ands or buts. Right. So the owners, like I told them, hey, we need to depreciate the carpet. Unfortunately, the carpet is over ten years old, right? You can't charge them to replace it. It's past it's life expectancy. So our attorneys and any attorney is going to tell you that life, the life of a carpet and paint is 5 to 10 years. And it's actually been decided on several cases, that it's seven years is what we should use. So we've been advised to use seven years. So if your carpet is brand new and they move in today after a year, it needs replaced, You can charge them for 6/7 of the cost of the carpet. Okay. Yeah. So you take out one year, that's two years, you take out two years or whatever, if it's over seven years old and they trashed that carpet, unfortunately you've got to eat that cost. And it's just it's a depreciated amount. You know, if they trashed the carpet, you're going to get them for other things.

ERIC: Sure. Yeah. Because that's going to be depleted with landscape cleanup, carpet, you know, touch up paint damage to the holes in the walls and so forth. Anyway, But you have to realize as as a landlord, you're not always going to have this deposit that you can just make the house rent ready again. Sure. So paint is the same way. Seven years, you know, you go in there and there's hand marks, the dogs licked the walls and stuff. If the house hasn't been painted and said in the last seven years, you're likely going to be responsible for the whole cost. And so you kind of need to know as a landlord, like you need to budget for it, Hey, every 5 to 10 years I'm going to have to replace the carpet in this house and I'm going to have to repaint this house. Right. And so that is a hard pill to swallow, especially for somebody like your wife, if she's a landlord and she's like, What do you mean they don't vacuum every day? Yeah, we we have move outs that they didn't vacuum one time in their tenancy. And I don't mean that as a as some offshoot example. It's like that happens like people don't have vacuums.

BEN: My, my first apartment I lived in when I moved on my parents lives with two other guys and we owned no vacuum and no no cleaning utensils or things of all right. Yeah, right.

ERIC: You're not renting from us. Yeah. Yeah.

BEN: I was 18 and. Yeah, yeah. No care in the world.

ERIC: Reality is, I mean, getting back to it is like you just have to know if you're self managing or whether you're hiring somebody. Make sure they understand. Make sure you, as the investor understands the life expectancy of certain things. Appliances. It's ten years now if they trash, if they're like they took a hammer to the stove and it's ten years old, you can charge them for some of it. But sure, if it's just like wear and tear to the point of replacement and it's over ten years old, it's like, dang it, I got to eat that. But you know what? That's part of what's being an investor is right. I got to invest in this property and over time you'll get your return later.

BEN: So what happens then? Let's say we send out the dispo.

ERIC: Oh, see, you're using dispo and people understand it.

BEN: Now they get it. Now we send it out and the tenant now doesn't agree on it. It says, you know what, that carpet is not that trashed, you know, and is how does this work like the push and pull of that.

ERIC: Yeah. So. You know, in our disposition, even at the bottom, it even opens the door for that. So it's not like Here you go, sucker. Closed door. And they have to like, Hey, how do I respond? We even say at the bottom, hey, if you want to dispute any of these charges, because we're confident in the before and the after pictures. Right. Right. But we're also human. And so I can't tell you that how many times we've made a mistake. Right. And it's like, oh, my gosh, I didn't even realize. I thought the picture I was looking at was the master. That was the kid's bedroom. You're right like that. Right. And so they're our property managers are amazing. Like they deal with a lot, but they're doing a lot of these and there are mistakes made. So if you make a dispute, we will research it. It usually involves their manager, the property manager's manager, and then we review it and then we'll respond within ten days. So it's one of those things they have 30 days to dispute it. Then we have ten days. There isn't a law with that as far as time frames, but our policy is that. I have to think that's where it gets kind of tricky if you're self managing, right? Even if you're legit and you type up a word, doc and you say, Here's the breakdown, you send it over. What if they text you, harass you? This is bull crap. I'm not paying. I'm not paying this. You say I owe you money, blah, blah, blah. By the way, that is the worst is when they think they're getting a they think they're getting a refund check. They tear that thing open and they're like, wait, I owe I owe money. And you're like, Yeah, dude, you. Yeah. And that's where we get more disputes than not is where they owe. And it's not even that we change it. It's like, Hey, let's have this have a 20 minute conversation and educate each other on this process.

BEN: Sure.

ERIC: Yeah. And a lot of the reason I even say that is on a disposition, it's not just damage and neglect. There's also unpaid charges. So let's say in the lease that I'm the tenant and I get HOA fines because I parked my trailer in the garage or outside the garage and I get 50 bucks a month that the owner is paying. Well, the owner is going to seek reimbursement. And if they didn't pay that along the way, and you've got I can't tell you how many backed HOA reimbursements or.

BEN: Sure.

ERIC: Yeah. Late fees that that were from the last month's rent. They were like well it's their last month we'll just we'll collect it out of the deposit or whatever. So those unpaid charges are going to be on on there as well. So they're like, oh, I left that place spic and span and they're like, Yeah, but your HOA charge from last quarter, you didn't reimburse it yet. Boom dang. Got that. And so sometimes it's just educating them.

BEN: Yeah, I'm. So then I think we've touched on on on a couple here. And obviously the goal with these things is always to be, you know, transparent, fair, honest to both people can see so that there's no questions ask. But I know we've seen some crazy stories over there. You mentioned the the house that was empty for ten years.

ERIC: Well, the house that was empty for ten years. I'm coming back to that only because it wasn't just the carpet issue. Right? Yeah. That the owners had it in their mind. That these houses were brand new. Yeah. And so when the AC went out two months into it, they automatically think the tenant did something to that AC unit. Yeah. And we had to remind them like, no, the AC unit didn't turn on for the first ten years of its life. Yeah, the parts are old, the freon, whatever. Right.

BEN: And it's out in the weather. It's rusted. Yeah.

ERIC: You have to think this house didn't have AC forever. It gets 120 in the summer. It gets cold in the winter. Yeah, everything's contracting, expanding all that stuff. And it's just that one was interesting because a disposition comes and they're like, What do you mean? The blinds are all cracked? What do you mean? This, that and the other? And it's like, did the this is the first time a human lived in this home. Yeah. A lot of the things with this house are not the tenant's fault. And it was an uphill battle, Right? We ended up managing both of those homes for many, many, many years. They have since sold them for four times what they paid for them.

BEN: So they're fine.

ERIC: So they're fine. And us dealing with the dispositions each time. I mean, it just it worked itself out, but it was an education process. I actually so I pinged Ryan. He's a director of property management and, and Carrie, the director of leasing, who has actually been a property manager for many years too. Right. So I just said, Hey, look, we're doing a podcast next week on Dispose, and they're like, Oh, it sounds boring, horrible. It's the worst part of the property manager's job, right? So it sounds amazing. And I'm like, No, we need to make it fun. Like, what's the craziest story? So so one was Ryan mentioned, he said, Oh yeah, we had this owner carpet's trashed. You know, there's probably a lot of different details. But he said, she literally sent me an invoice that said because the tenants trashed the flooring, I have to replace the flooring, but I want to put in travertine. And it was $18,000 to put travertine and this is like a $2,000 rental. We could charge the tenant for replacing the carpet, but she's like, No, I want them to pay for the travertine and I'll even work with them a little bit.

ERIC: But they owe me 18,000. And Ryan's just like. Did. Are you serious? Yeah. And he's like, This has to be a joke. Like, do you mean 1800? Or do you understand? Like, you can't? She's like, Well, I don't think it's fair. I wouldn't have to put travertine if they didn't trash my carpet. And he's like, she like tripled down right like over and over. And it ended up being to the point where I think I was involved as the broker to say, Hey, look, we're putting our foot down here. Yeah, if you want to charge those things, we are going to tell the tenant that we've severed service and you're going to have to do this, that and the other. And she basically just threw a fit and we worked through it, but. And we still manage it. So he's like, Hey, look, she's a good owner. It was just a matter of, of educating. And then at the end of the day, it ended up being, being, being okay.

BEN: Could you imagine you think you're going to get maybe I'll get 500 bucks back from my security deposit and you open up the thing and it's a bill for for $18,000.

ERIC: You're like, no, there has to be a mistake.

BEN: No, that's got to be a decimal.

ERIC: Part of it we have to do is is working with our owners. They're are the best clients in the world. And a lot of them just it's either their first time through it or hey, I've had such good tenants for year after year and then they have this bad one and they're like, it just sours the whole relationship. So a lot of it is like, Hey, look, you trust us, we trust you. We'll build this relationship of trust, but you've got to trust us. You know, it sounds cliche, but trust us. Like, part of our job is to keep you out of the crosshairs, of being sued. Yeah, that's part of our job. And so we have to tell them, Hey, look, technically, I might be able to. This is gray area, but I've got to say, you're opening the door to a lawsuit or you're opening the door to small claims court or you're opening. You know, I got I literally got served for small claims yesterday for a disposition from September of last year. So it was 12 months ago. It's actually as strange as it sounds, it's a tenant that ended up catching up and they paid what was owed. And then one year later, they're there fighting it.

ERIC: And I only bring that up because it was one that that actually we had settled outside of, of attorneys and stuff. And then now they're like, well, that was separate. I'm going after you. So sometimes you just can't make the tenant happy. Sure. So that's an extreme example. Another example I actually pulled up in an email and so I wrote it down here in in quotes, but so the carpet's trashed and I feel like all the all the stories are carpets trashed. I mean, yeah, it's the easiest thing to trash, but one of the reasons we bring it up is it usually depletes the whole deposit and if it's prorated, it's like replacing carpets expensive. So the tenant fought it in small claims court and in the small claims. Reasoning of why she doesn't think we should get charged was You knew I was a single mother with four kids. This is expected wear and tear. You should have to replace the carpet. And it's like this has nothing to do with a single mom or four kids. But it was almost just like her mindset was, you understood? I had pets and kids. The carpet was going to get trashed. You can't charge me to clean the carpets.

BEN: You knew I was busy when you rented to me. I couldn't be expected to clean up after myself.

ERIC: And part of me reads that it's like, Dude, you feel bad. Like you don't want to. To your point, you want to be fair and honest and aboveboard. But sometimes being fair and honest does not make both parties happy. In fact, most of the times we charge tenants for charges. The owner still is not satisfied because they hear us tell them, Nope, can't charge for that. Can't charge for that. Can't charge for that. They're like, Are you kidding me? What can I charge for it? And we're like, Well, these are the legitimate damage and neglect charges you can't charge for touch up paint in this house that you painted 15 years ago. So, yeah, well, I lived there my whole life. I didn't have to. And I'm like, Doesn't matter, dude. Like, you're not ready to be an investor. You're not ready to be a landlord if you can't stomach some of this. So, you know, our whole job is to educate, represent them in the way. And I can't tell you how many times I tell them. Part of our job is to keep you out of the courtroom, keep you out of getting served, keep you out of even demand letters from attorneys like I can't tell you how many tenants have friends that are attorneys that sent us a demand letter or something. And we're like, and we spell it out and we we show everybody that it is it's fair. This is an honest thing. And usually it just fizzles out in the attorneys, like, oh, they didn't tell me that or they didn't show me that invoice or whatever. So I would say those are the most extreme examples.

ERIC: At the end of the day, with the disposition, the education piece of this, that hopefully that you take away from this as investors, future investors, self managing landlords, or if you have another PM company that is not us is make sure that they are and that you or they are doing it within the time frame. So in Arizona it's 14 business days. If you wait till that 15th business day to do that disposition, you're out of luck. You're they're eligible for two and one half times the deposit, and so you don't even flirt with the line. Make sure you get it. Get it closer. The other thing is make sure that your pro rating damages. So, you know, if it's an extreme case, you might be able to charge the full amount. But for the most part, you've got to prorate and depreciate it. Just like if I was to have an insurance claim on my house, the insurance adjuster is going to say, Oh, yeah, we'll replace your cabinets, but they're 20 years old. You're not going to get 20, 22 full price replacement cabinets, right? You're going to get full price, less depreciation. So you've got to factor in depreciation with that. And at the end of the day, you just have to be able to stand behind it. So say these charges, X, Y and Z. If I'm standing in front of a judge at small claims court, can I 100% stand straight up and say, No, this is legit? Yeah, if it's gray, you know you need to make it black and white. Yeah, that's all. I guess that's kind of what I would say. The conclusion.

BEN: Is. No, I like that. Yeah. If it's gray, you're going to make it black and white. Yeah. It's got to be straightforward to wear. Anybody would look at it and say, That's fair. You know, and that you're in the right on that one. All right. Well, man dispositions there's a lot to them.

ERIC: Making dispose fun again. Yeah, that's it.

BEN: Were they ever.

ERIC: Though. No, they were never fun. Yeah. Make it interesting at least.

BEN: So thanks for hanging out with us today and we will catch you guys next time. Just make sure you follow the podcast wherever you listen and leave us a review. It really helps out.